23 Years

[AYBG]

www.fmuk.org.uk/?p=4026

It was peculiar to hear yesterday the SYP Chief Constable apologising “even now” for the abuse of power way back then, or the BBC’s own emphasis that 1989 was comparatively much more recent history than police corruption in the 1960s. The reality of it is, this wasn’t just a criminal conspiracy perpetrated back at the end of the 80s, this was a cover-up that could have been dismantled by each and every government across the last two and a half decades.

I was born in 1990, the year after Hillsborough. The truth should have been (widely) known before my time. Those responsible should have been held accountable by the time I was one.

The Prime Minister’s apology yesterday didn’t hold back from identifying the affair an “appalling failure of the state”. For all to see, THE TRUTH:

[*] the series of catastrophic errors by the police which caused the deaths of 96 men, women and children and the serious injury to hundreds;
[*] the decision to hold back the fleets of ambulances outside the stadium, only two ever gaining entry — the emergency services which might have saved the 59 still alive beyond the 3.15 cut-off point at which they were declared deceased, 41 of which we now know had the true potential to have lived;
[*] the systematic cover-up by the South Yorkshire Police, ranging from “amendments” to alcohol blood tests on the deceased (including a ten year old) and criminal record checks so as to impugn their reputation;
[*] the fabrications reported by the media, most notably The Sun in that infamous headline story, which the people of Merseyside will never forgive.

And then there’s the government, who only a couple of years ago agreed on the release of most of the information pertinent to Hillsborough, despite the constant fight of the families of the victims, the people of Liverpool as a larger family, and Liverpool FC supporters worldwide. In this time, a reputation against them was created and entrenched in the national ideology. 23 years is much, much too long for this to possibly be reversed.

The city of Liverpool was not exactly a favourite of the institution at the time. The Thatcher administration didn’t stop at writing off its economic prospects – it systematically decimated it. Thatcher herself was well known for her hatred of a city that sought fairness through action, strikes that held stronger than most against her barbarism, its disillusionment with the system including the law. Last year saw the release of cabinet papers (due to the 30 year rule) which revealed she strongly considered writing off the city entirely by calling for evacuation during the 1981 riots instigated by the racist police. Instead, she bled it dry.

Fast-forward to 1989 and the loss of 96 innocent lives did not reach sympathetic ears at 10 Downing Street, and yesterday’s documents prove beyond all doubt that Thatcher was aware of the police’s responsibility for the disaster, and of the cover-up conceived mere hours after the horrific deaths which tapped into the convenient narrative of football hooliganism which the general populace would have no qualms b*ying into.

Margaret Thatcher is culpable for her part as accomplice and should be tried accordingly.

The extent of Thatcher’s role is unknown. Of course, it was in her own best interests not to play the whistleblower when she relied on the support of the police, as violent force (and a monopoly at that), throughout her tenure. But beyond that, the people of Liverpool have often suspected the Iron Lady had a more hands-on role in instigating the cover-up.

Conspiracy theory? Tell that to the families who have been called liars for the last 23 years. The relevant minutes and papers from the Prime Minister’s office in the hours after Hillsborough are yet to be disclosed.

Is it any wonder that Merseyside has little to no faith in the state? First-hand it has suffered the betrayal of its own people, blamed for their own loss after the failure of the police, the emergency system and the government itself. Every government since 1989 which ignored the cries for the truth.

Watergate didn’t last 23 years.

- David “AYBG” Smart

[AYBG]

As a counterpoint, here is something I had to say yesterday:

"Today I represent the Prime Minister and the Government."



I remember this vividly, during the Hillsborough memorial service three years ago. The anger was completely justified, the immediate target not so much. Many of you know how wary I am of praising or placing faith in politicians, but in contrast to what I have to say tomorrow it is clear how tirelessly Andy Burnham MP has fought to uncover today the biggest cover-up in British history, to give the truth to the long-suffering families of the 96. And yet he took it. He took our anger, an act of great human decency.

Thank you, Andy Burnham.

[SocialFlutterBy]

Couldn't agree more, unfortunately i don't think anyone will be held accountable for their truly atrocious actions however i pray that one day i be proved wrong, i was born in 1979 i remember fully the disgusting headlines that the newspapers ran with, the people of Merseyside are correct to never forget nor forgive those pathetic excuses for journalists and Editors and nor should anyone else for that matter,

At least the truth is out there now (well some of it) and hopefully the fight for justice will continue until people are truly held accountable to the full strength of the law for for their actions..

Rest In Peace 96 YNWA x

[Flabber]

At least the truth is out there now (well some of it) and hopefully the fight for justice will continue until people are truly held accountable to the full strength of the law for for their actions..

The fight for justice really is the next step... there can be no other after what has come to light.
JTF-96

[SteveDan]

All of those who had ANY level of responsibility for this unforgiveable series of lies should be held accountable. Everyone from the Football Association (footballs law makers) and safety officials (the game should never have been played at a stadium without safety certificates) , to the football club (who should have had the safety certificates) , the police, ambulance service, etc etc...

[mupton]

http://www.fmuk.org.uk/?p=4026

It was peculiar to hear yesterday the SYP Chief Constable apologising “even now” for the abuse of power way back then, or the BBC’s own emphasis that 1989 was comparatively much more recent history than police corruption in the 1960s. The reality of it is, this wasn’t just a criminal conspiracy perpetrated back at the end of the 80s, this was a cover-up that could have been dismantled by each and every government across the last two and a half decades.

I was born in 1990, the year after Hillsborough. The truth should have been (widely) known before my time. Those responsible should have been held accountable by the time I was one.

The Prime Minister’s apology yesterday didn’t hold back from identifying the affair an “appalling failure of the state”. For all to see, THE TRUTH:

[*] the series of catastrophic errors by the police which caused the deaths of 96 men, women and children and the serious injury to hundreds;
[*] the decision to hold back the fleets of ambulances outside the stadium, only two ever gaining entry — the emergency services which might have saved the 59 still alive beyond the 3.15 cut-off point at which they were declared deceased, 41 of which we now know had the true potential to have lived;
[*] the systematic cover-up by the South Yorkshire Police, ranging from “amendments” to alcohol blood tests on the deceased (including a ten year old) and criminal record checks so as to impugn their reputation;
[*] the fabrications reported by the media, most notably The Sun in that infamous headline story, which the people of Merseyside will never forgive.

And then there’s the government, who only a couple of years ago agreed on the release of most of the information pertinent to Hillsborough, despite the constant fight of the families of the victims, the people of Liverpool as a larger family, and Liverpool FC supporters worldwide. In this time, a reputation against them was created and entrenched in the national ideology. 23 years is much, much too long for this to possibly be reversed.

The city of Liverpool was not exactly a favourite of the institution at the time. The Thatcher administration didn’t stop at writing off its economic prospects – it systematically decimated it. Thatcher herself was well known for her hatred of a city that sought fairness through action, strikes that held stronger than most against her barbarism, its disillusionment with the system including the law. Last year saw the release of cabinet papers (due to the 30 year rule) which revealed she strongly considered writing off the city entirely by calling for evacuation during the 1981 riots instigated by the racist police. Instead, she bled it dry.

Fast-forward to 1989 and the loss of 96 innocent lives did not reach sympathetic ears at 10 Downing Street, and yesterday’s documents prove beyond all doubt that Thatcher was aware of the police’s responsibility for the disaster, and of the cover-up conceived mere hours after the horrific deaths which tapped into the convenient narrative of football hooliganism which the general populace would have no qualms b*ying into.

Margaret Thatcher is culpable for her part as accomplice and should be tried accordingly.

The extent of Thatcher’s role is unknown. Of course, it was in her own best interests not to play the whistleblower when she relied on the support of the police, as violent force (and a monopoly at that), throughout her tenure. But beyond that, the people of Liverpool have often suspected the Iron Lady had a more hands-on role in instigating the cover-up.

Conspiracy theory? Tell that to the families who have been called liars for the last 23 years. The relevant minutes and papers from the Prime Minister’s office in the hours after Hillsborough are yet to be disclosed.

Is it any wonder that Merseyside has little to no faith in the state? First-hand it has suffered the betrayal of its own people, blamed for their own loss after the failure of the police, the emergency system and the government itself. Every government since 1989 which ignored the cries for the truth.

Watergate didn’t last 23 years.

- David “AYBG” Smart

For someone who was born in 1990 you seem to know a lot about Margaret Thatcher. A lived through her reign - and was affected by unemployment - myself and my father - during that time in 80s. I voted for Old Labour then. So no fan. But this is so OTT about her role in Hillsborough.

This had nothing to do with her views about the Police, or even Liverpool and more to do with her views on Football. The same outcome would have happened with any team - perhaps save one or two with well connected supporters (I won't name them). As a football supporter who regularly attended games in the 70s/80s I just don't blame her for those views.

But she could have done more to uncover the truth and better support Lord Justice Taylor's inquiry. It was a mistake to ask West Midlands police to investigate what happened. But that was down to Douglas Hurd (who is perhaps more to blame more generally about the corruption in South Yorks and WM Police - there were wider problems going on). In those days there weren't independent investigations outside the police force.

You may not like Thatcher, ok. Though I find it difficult to understand why you should hold those views when she was not in power when you were alive (see departed the scene in Nov 90).

Why not focus on John Mayor (a football supporter), David Mellor (another one), Tony Blair and Jack Straw all who had opportunities to provide some justice?

[AYBG]

You may not like Thatcher, ok. Though I find it difficult to understand why you should hold those views when she was not in power when you were alive (see departed the scene in Nov 90).

Why not focus on John Mayor (a football supporter), David Mellor (another one), Tony Blair and Jack Straw all who had opportunities to provide some justice?

I believe I placed a good deal of emphasis on the fact that every successive government failed in this regard. But Thatcher is different because, as yesterday's documents show, she was aware of the cover-up from the offset. The question is, did she condone it, or even play a part in instigating it? At the very least, assuming it was merely something she let slide, there must be motivation and it must relate to the police. At a basic level it's common sense: if something reflects badly on one part of the system, it reflects badly on it all, which is clearly the basic reason it's taken so long for the truth to come out. Alternatively, there's Jack Straw's opinion that it was part of a "culture of impunity" in the police for which Thatcher was responsible, which also reflects the notion that she heavily relied on police support. Whatever the case, the reputation and/or support of the police was more important to her than the expiration of a handful of lower-class football supporters from Liverpool of all places.

Before yesterday, those who knew of the Hillsborough cover-up could have (and were) accused of being OTT. I am relaying the suspicions that have long stood, because the time is right that they be opened up to wider discourse, and there has been nothing to contradict them. If you saw the SYP Chief Constable yesterday you'll have heard him already try to pass the buck down to "junior officials", and we're going to see a lot of that the harder the justice campaign hits. But what should be obvious at a minimum is that the police cover-up required coordination from above, and that Thatcher was definitely involved.

[mupton]

You may not like Thatcher, ok. Though I find it difficult to understand why you should hold those views when she was not in power when you were alive (see departed the scene in Nov 90).

Why not focus on John Mayor (a football supporter), David Mellor (another one), Tony Blair and Jack Straw all who had opportunities to provide some justice?

I believe I placed a good deal of emphasis on the fact that every successive government failed in this regard. But Thatcher is different because, as yesterday's documents show, she was aware of the cover-up from the offset. The question is, did she condone it, or even play a part in instigating it? At the very least, assuming it was merely something she let slide, there must be motivation and it must relate to the police. At a basic level it's common sense: if something reflects badly on one part of the system, it reflects badly on it all, which is clearly the basic reason it's taken so long for the truth to come out. Alternatively, there's Jack Straw's opinion that it was part of a "culture of impunity" in the police for which Thatcher was responsible, which also reflects the notion that she heavily relied on police support. Whatever the case, the reputation and/or support of the police was more important to her than the expiration of a handful of lower-class football supporters from Liverpool of all places.

Before yesterday, those who knew of the Hillsborough cover-up could have (and were) accused of being OTT. I am relaying the suspicions that have long stood, because the time is right that they be opened up to wider discourse, and there has been nothing to contradict them. If you saw the SYP Chief Constable yesterday you'll have heard him already try to pass the buck down to "junior officials", and we're going to see a lot of that the harder the justice campaign hits. But what should be obvious at a minimum is that the police cover-up required coordination from above, and that Thatcher was definitely involved.

Well I prefer to believe the Bishop of Liverpool who has said very clearly in the report that there is no evidence what so ever for that. I think you are just doing what The Sun did all those years ago. You have a narrative that appeals to you and you want to just convince us of that without facts or evidence. For the record Jack Straw - even if he was right - is a bloody disgrace. He had the chance, amply chance, to get to the truth of what happened when he was Home Office. He was also Justice Secretary when Andy Burnham was having great difficultly persuading the Brown Cabinet to commission this last inquiry. I was told Burnham was being opposed by Justice and Home Office.

[AYBG]

I was glad we were having a civilised discussion. After all, the families have had such difficulty getting people to listen, let alone talk about the issues, all these years. But I, doubtless like most Liverpool supporters, have been at the receiving end of Hillsborough related abuse. Disagree with me, fine. But THIS is just not on:

I think you are just doing what The Sun did all those years ago.

For this reason I have banned the user. If you guys think I've overreacted, I'll undo it. But I don't think anything that has or will ever be said on this forum can warrant a comparison like that.

Edit: I've reconsidered and will remove the ban after a few days, sooner if that's the general wish. Though deeply offensive, I've realised he was being careless rather than malicious.

[Flabber]

Not sure if this is the right place for this...
http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/mgE ... ID=4455812

In response to this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/ju ... .football1